Although JWs and SDAs are both adventist sects, the LDS and SDAs are the results of alleged communication with heaven. The JWs and SDAs have similar doctrines because they come from common roots. As the paper noted, not surprisingly, the membership numbers of Mormons rose as the number of missionaries increased. At the same time, membership is declining in Europe while increasing in Central and South America, partially, no doubt, because of the Book of Mormon's alleged roots in these countries, and the decline of all religions in the face of secular atheism in Europe. This increase in atheism already is beginning to seep into American population centers.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs
by fukitol inthe sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.
increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.
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7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs
by fukitol inthe sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.
increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.
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Cold Steel
The SDA problem is similar to the JW problem and it has to do with eschatological teachings not panning out. Unlike the JWs, the SDAs regard their founder as a prophet. Ellen G. White had a number of visions that became part of their canon. First, she had it revealed to her that the true sabbath was Saturday and that Christians had changed the times and the seasons. The sabbath has never changed to the first day of the week but had remained the seventh day, she said, and she had it revealed to her that the Antichrist was the Pope and that the end times would be preceded by the Pope gaining control of the nations of the earth, then passing "Sunday-only laws," and killing those who failed to comply. (Imagine the bunker video, but for SDAs instead of JWs.)
The Pope and the false prophet would take the nations of the earth down to Israel, where it would seek to take the city of Jerusalem by force, but they would be stopped in the valley of Armageddon and destroyed by the returning Christ.
Somehow this just didn't seem to be panning out as no one seems to care which day one worships on and no one has offered to hand over their standing armies over to the vatican. Even so, go to YouTube and enter "antichrist" and "pope." So some are still pitching it.
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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Cold Steel
Your problem, Cofty, is you're a drive by, hit and run prevaricator. You're all form and no substance. When it comes to evolution you copy, paste and drone on forever. When it comes to religion, you merely attempt to bully and move on.
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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Cold Steel
Animals did not sin, they have done nothing wrong.
You raise some outstanding points. In the same way, though, infants have done nothing wrong, nor have they sinned. One can argue that they learn nothing from their suffering and that's a valid point as well, but in the end we simply don't know what people or animals gain from life on Earth. My own personal belief is that in the beginning, a plan was formed, we agreed to it, the Earth was created, man fell purposely because he could not attain to the glory of God in the state he was placed in the Garden. This is something the Orthodox Church has repeatedly addressed. In short, as Father Kallistos Ware stated in his book, The Orthodox Way, "[God] became what we are, so as to make us what he is." (Page 97) He asks, "Should we look behind the fall and see God's act of becoming man as the fulfillment of man's true destiny?" And he states, "The Incarnation, then, is not simply a way of undoing the effects of original sin, but it is an essential stage upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness." And while the Jehovah's Witnesses say only 144,000 receive this potential, other religions don't buy it.
They do not benefit or learn from their suffering and death in any way, do they?
We don't know, but if God is just and merciful, I'd say yes, absolutely. Not everything has been revealed, but as you noted, what a horrible injustice it would be be to create animals, make them suffer and require their very existence from them, then treat them as non-entitities, never to be seen or heard from again. Wouldn't it make more sense to create them as artificial intelligence, to mimic pain, suffering, love, affection and so forth? That way they wouldn't suffer at all. We would simply think they had suffered. Of course I don't believe that at all, but it would be better to do that than to make these creatures actual sentient beings, cause them pain, untold suffering, give them awareness and then discard them. How would this make God any less of a monster than ISIS? (A captured Jordanian pilot is put in a cage and burned to death by terrorists. But many Christians who condemned ISIS for this horrible deed had no trouble believing that this unfortunate Muslim pilot just kept right on burning in Hell because he was not a Christian. If true, God would be more of a monster than ISIS because his suffering would be eternal.)
You admit they experience emotions, and yet they don't have the intelligence that we do to read a holy book and find comfort and understanding of why they suffer, as many people do from their beliefs.
Yes, but there are many people who lack that same ability. We also don't need to understand these things in our own lives, either, because we either don't understand or believe our own holy books. Most of my own beliefs in this matter don't come from the Bible but from other scriptures you don't believe in. Some here don't believe in any holy book at all, but believe that all suffering is horrible and meaningless -- and that if there is a God, then He is heartless and a monster.
For years I've suffered from a bicycle accident that happened back in 2001. Every day I'm on painkillers, but I worked for NIH at the time, so I knew a lot of doctors. One day I asked one of them at the Pain and Palliative Care unit how people back in the 1800s dealt with such issues. He didn't say a word. He just turned his hand into a mug and tipped up to his lips as though drinking. Then he turned the mug into a pistol and pointed his finger at his temple and clicked his thumb. So personally I have to think there's a reason for suffering or there would be no reason for me to live. But I wouldn't needlessly addict suffering on any person or animal if I didn't think there was a purpose. If I did it, I would be a monster. And if God did it, He would be a monster. But I don't believe God is a monster.
They cannot even ask for help when they need it.
Not true. Most people with pets, most farmers with cattle, know animals can ask for help. My cat got very sick last year and I could tell by the way he acted and sounded that he was in pain and distress. This was reinforced when I brought up his cat carrier and he got right into it instead of heading in the opposite direction. He knows the carrier is for vet visits and, somehow, that it has something to do with his health. He came close to dying, but they saved him. Now the cat wants no part of the carrier.
Their suffering is unjustifiable.
But is that for us to decide? Either God exists or He doesn't. If He doesn't, man is simply engaging in polemics. If one is a Christian, one usually concedes that man doesn't have the whole picture -- that God has a more complete understanding than man. If religion is a sham, then man has the only picture, in which case not only is the pain and suffering of animals cruel and meaningless, the pain and suffering of all living creatures is cruel and meaningless. And if they're correct about there being no God, it becomes a situation of our not being able to do anything about it.
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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Cold Steel
Defender » Ok. If that is true, why has God allowed them to suffer?
The question, ultimately, must be that if humans have spirits, do animals likewise have spirits? Obviously this is only opinion as some people don't believe either humans or animals possess them.
Jehovah's Witnesses and other adventists believe even humans lack spirits. But if Jesus was put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit -- that is, departed his body as a spirit, and preached to the spirits in prison, it's a pretty good argument that man has a spirit. Peter writes:
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18-21)
He later writes: “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)
“Until Christ came,” says the Pistis Sophia, “no soul had gone through the ordinances in their completeness. It was He who opened the gate and the way of life. Those who receive these ordinances are the dispensations of the Sons of Light. And they receive whatever they desire.”
My point is that man actually does have a spirit residing within him, animating him, and so it makes sense that animals also have animating spirits. As Jesus stated, “The body without the spirit is dead.” (James 2:26) Thus, when he was put to death in the flesh, his spirit departed and went to Paradise, as he promised the thief on the cross/stake. Thus, when Origen, the first and greatest of the non-apostolic scholars, attempted to recall what the earliest Christians believed, he wrote: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.” (Jean Danielou, Biblica 28 (1947), Origen (N.Y.: Sheed and Ward, 1955)
My point is that spirits are eternal. They are the animating force in both man and beasts and are characterized by both intelligence and awareness, and they progress as we do. Animals experience love, hate, they have a healthy sense of self preservation, but, too, they've been known to selflessly sacrifice themselves for others, both animals and humans. Does God create intelligence only to then snuff it out when it no longer suits Him? “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other...." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
These animals serve us, die for us, serve as our companions and friends while others serve as food and beasts of burden. They were created with man and they differ in intelligence amongst themselves even as we differ amongst ourselves. And animals are provided to us as part of our stewardship to use as God dictates.
If we have spirits that animate us, and I think it's clear that the first century Christians believed this despite what adventist pundits claim, it stands to reason that animals must have some inner force that makes them go. If the body without the spirit is dead for humans, it stands to reason the same would be true for animals. The doctrine that the body goes back to the Earth and the core of what we are ceases to be at death may be fine for atheists, but it was never part of the Christian faith.
Now the reason God allows them to suffer is for the same reason He allows us to suffer. First, because both men and animals are eternal beings, suffering is our lot in life. It is because of the free agency of man and the limitations God has placed on Himself while we murder and enslave each other. Part of it's based on the fact that nothing on Earth can truly hurt us. We can suffer, die horrible deaths, but ultimately we're immortal beings that are incapable of being permanently scarred by what we suffer here. And according to Christian doctrine, Jesus, the manifestation of God in the flesh, suffered far worse in atoning for man's sins than anything He cold add us to suffer.
So these are my views. I hate to see animals or humans suffer and die, but I don't believe it's for naught.
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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Cold Steel
Cofty » Cold Steel you are embarrassing yourself.
Oh, I'm sorry. I meant to say we're all souless entities, the products of millions of years of evolution. When we die, we die. Anyone who thinks any different is a brainless dolt.
That make you feel better?
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Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
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Cold Steel
Animals only exist for a brief time on this earth which often ends with them dying in pain from disease, predation, starvation, or the aging process. ... Humans are no different.
Yes, but you're essentially saying that none of it has any purpose.
To claim that humans were always meant to live forever on earth, would make God appear unbalanced and uncaring towards the countless species who always have and always will suffer and die on this earth, without any hope of a resurrection.
Yes, but are you saying God intended for man to live on Earth in a garden environment for untold gazillions of years doing nothing but tending it? What was the purpose in that? The only apparent difference between humans and animals is in intelligence. To ask animals to suffer pain and death without a "hope" of a resurrection in indeed heartless.
"Though animals die in the same manner as man, they do not share his hope of a resurrection." it-1 pp.110-1112
The Watchtower has created doctrines which are not stated anywhere in the Bible, such as humans were meant to live forever on earth before Adam sinned, and animals will definitely have no resurrection.This is an understatement. Perhaps animals will be resurrected, and perhaps man was supposed to fall. If something is not found in the scriptures, are we supposed to make vain suppositions? Animals are incredible! They feel pain, joy, are capable of self sacrifice, can improve themselves, retain memories. And even as Christ suffered for us, He suffered for them. Throughout the centuries, animals have worked for and beside mankind. To think they would just end at death makes no sense. They are eternal beings, even as man. Especially cats.
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Hospice and JW
by Terry Clees ini am a bereavement coordinator with a hospice company.
i have noticed that most often jw patients decline chaplain care and also the family ends up declining bereavement care.
where i work our chaplains do not proselytize at all...they merely walk with the patient in their faith at the end of life.
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Cold Steel
Terry Clees » What can we do to serve our JW patients better as chaplains and bereavement coordinators?
Unfortunately, Terry, there's very little you can do. The very people you're attempting to serve believe there's nothing you can teach them. They're here to teach you, not the other way around. To them you're merely someone who is in a deep state of apostasy.
I used to work at the National Institutes of Health and, though I'm a Christian, the chaplain I enjoyed talking to the most was the rabbi! As for dealing with grief, finding someone with great doctrinal understanding isn't always my first choice.
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that when on dies, one ceases to exist. Despite the faith one may have in God, or JEHOVAH if you will, when one dies, a person is merely reformed for judgment. If then the person is worthy, they continue on. If found wanting, on the other hand, he or she is then dissolved, permanently, and there's nothing more to be said about it.
If the person was a member in good standing, he will be resurrected (though you most likely will not). But if not, nothing you say or do will be of any comfort. And that is that. It would be the height of arrogance to suggest that you, a non-member, could teach them anything of value, or comfort them. The worst thing you could do is suggest that God...er...JEHOVAH...is merciful or might grant the dead or dying any kind of a break that they themselves hadn't already thought of.
That's just the way things are. The only comfort you may offer is of that as an elder in the faith. You cannot offer more than that.
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How can the WTS call themselves Christians when they have no Christian church?
by TTWSYF inso was jesus a fool or a liar?
he said that his church would last all ages, didn't he?.
math 16:8and i say to thee: that thou art peter; and upon this rock i will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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Cold Steel
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 6:8)
He said that HIS church would last all ages, didn't he?
Your point is well taken in that Jesus did institute a church. Whether you want to call it a Congregation or a French Poodle really makes no difference. Paul was writing epistles to those under his charge who were organized into units. The New Testament mentions specific offices such as bishops, elders, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles, prophets (not really an office), priests, evangelists and seventy. Of these, the JWs have only a fraction.
The Governing Body will tell you the priesthood was abolished when Christ came, but that's not what Paul states. He said the priesthood was "changed," but didn't say how.
Regarding whether the church would last throughout the ages, I'm afraid the Society was correct, but only accidentally on its part. They were correct about the apostasy, or the loss of the Church.
But how about the gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church? Actually, this verse contains two subjects: 1) the Church and 2) the gates of Hell. Most people believe that it's Hell besieging the Church, and that it won't succeed. In this sense, however, Hell is "Death," and it's being besieged by the Church, and that throws an entirely different spin on things. Instead of the Church being hammered by Death, Death is being hammered by the Church, and Death will not prevail.
Prophecy does state rather unequivocally that the Church will not survive, and that there will be an apostasy. That was the entire reason why Jesus spent forty days with his apostles following His resurrection. He was preparing them for what the Church termed the "rule of the Cosmoplanes," an event the Church looked ahead of with horror. But it perceived it would come from without when, had it been paying attention, it would have seen that it was coming about from within!
Not only was there prophecy stating that the apostasy would come, Peter looked ahead to the days of the "restoration of all things." (Acts 3:18-20) "And [the Father] shall send Jesus Christ...whom the Heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things." I suppose this is how the JWs justify their 1914 "invisible return," but I honestly don't believe they know anymore.
In any event, if Jesus did actually form a church, how did it end up in the hands of Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Rutherford? And how did they learn to administer the church? And how did it manage to make itself any different than any other manmade church?
TTWSYF » Jesus specified about HIS church and those of HIS church are HIS witnesses. Doesn't that mean something to people who claim to be Christians?
Yes, but just calling one's self a "witness" isn't enough, right? "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established," the Law states. But calling one's self a witness and actually being a witness are two different things. And that's where the sub hits crush depth! No one saw Jesus return in 1914. No one saw Him choose the Bible students in 1918. No one knows whether its doctrines are correct or whether they're completely out of whack.
If the Adventist doctrines are wrong on a single point, what does that do to the entire fabric? If the soul sleeping doctrine is wrong and people (and animals) have spirits that escape their bodies at death, I'd think most JWs would be overjoyed. (Who wants to cease to exist, even for a short period?) But just being wrong on one doctrine could carry on to many other doctrines!
The Society can call itself Witnesses all it wants, but if you were a JW, and died, then suddenly discovered life continues, even though you were dead, how would you feel? Would you immediately lose faith in the entire religion?
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Reading From The Same Book?
by Cold Steel ini'm reading a brief book -- a critical analysis -- of muhammad and islam.
the following sounded familiar:.
as the cult steadily grew, muhammad strictly forbade followers to keep contact with family members in mecca or even befriend unbelievers.
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Cold Steel
ScottyRex » Yet you give reverence to the BOM? really......??
Yes, so what does the Book of Mormon have to do with the Qur'an? No one ever witnessed anything revelatory with the latter. The angel was only seen by Muhammad. His "revelations" were only witnessed by Muhammad. The scriptures state, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
In the first century church, the apostles witnessed the miracles and healings of Christ. They were on the mount of transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared to them. They witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and spent 40 days with Him.
In like manner, there were many witnesses to the gold plates of the Book of Mormon, even more than the official witnesses. There were those who felt the gold plates through the burlap bag in which they were kept. There were witnesses of the angels who appeared to Joseph Smith and there were angels who appeared to others.
But for those who know much about the LDS movement, the Qur'an has more in common with our Doctrine & Covenants than the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is the record of another people at another time, while the Qur'an and the Doctrine & Covenants are collections of revelations.
The doctrines and revelations found in these volumes are mutually exclusive. There's nothing taught in one that's espoused in the other. Either one is correct or they're both wrong. But Islam rests on the shoulders of Muhammad and him only. Mormonism and first century Christianity, on the other hand, rests on the testimonies of many. And neither uses the mind control tactics used by Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses and Islam -- tactics that cut off their adherents, use their families against them and use excommunication as a tool to destroy or torture.
As for evidence, I know of no doctrine, prophecy or belief peculiar to Islam that has been shown to have subsequent merit. Such is not the case with either first century Christianity or Mormonism. In fact, there are things that neither Joseph Smith nor anyone else living in the Western Hemisphere could have known about in 1830, when the Book of Mormon was first published.